Why I Quit Facebook (and Twitter)

Leo Laporte says nobody cares about Google Buzz and that this whole "social media" thing is like shouting into a vast echo chamber where no one can hear, because they're too busy shouting themselves.

I agree.  Which is why I've killed off my Twitter and Facebook accounts.

Both Twitter and Facebook, while very cool in theory, are more of a distraction than anything.  One more thing to do.

Are you on Twiiter and/or Facebook?  Why or why not?

Post your thoughts below...

Comments

[Lee Fox]

I agree.

Twitter is especially pointless.

[Nikc]

Twitter was great at first. Now everyone's on it and it is a void. Facebook continues to be great, because the audience is mostly a group of close friends or at least people you have crossed the value-barrier with.

The truth of the matter is that if you are looking to promote, no one method is totally worthless. You just have to find out what works for you. For example, right now , Twitter doesn't work FOR ME, but someday it might. I can post a really thoughtful link to my blog on Twitter and no one will click, or I can randomly post a comment on someone else's blog and 20 people will click my name and go to my page. The key is to not rule out ANYTHING. But rather to find out what's working and focus your time on that.

Before ruling out Twitter though, how about reframing it? If everyone's shouting, then stop shouting, and start responding personally to individual shouts? That's a way to change the game.

[David Hooper]

I think that's a great way to look at it.

The question is -- is it worth the effort you put into it?

I hear people say thing like, "If I play a show and get one new fan, it was worth it."

Was it? You drove 300 miles each way, had to get a hotel, take a couple of days to do the gig, etc... Is one fan really worth it?

You could argue that "it depends on the fan" and you'd be right, but if it's just the average fan, I'd argue probably not worth your time and money investment.

[Stateofm]

Social media have been vastly overrated. They're not a magic bullet.
I think the trick is to assume your audience is like you:
I use Twitter and Facebook to get updates from bands I already like. Of course I don't follow artists I've never heard of.
So: Social media maintain connections you already have. They don't make new ones - that's where live gigs and radio airplay comes in.

[Thelonious Bajcar]

My act is just a baby (2 months) and I've tried both, so here are my findings:

with me, I find "twatter" fairly useless. but a lot of my fans are either older or just dont use it. It would be amazing and would work like a charm if they followed me as if my notifications were sent directly to their phone. but no luck, so no good for me. still a fun little toy to record the cute little ideas and look at their progression a couple months back.

with facebook, I find it's not working really in bringing people out or finding new fans, but it dosnt hurt on keeping your friends posted. but the size of event reminders have been getting smaller and smaller. and it still leaves them with no need to come out to the show or whatever you want even if they say thier attending. but I still use it because as little as it does. if it brings 4 people out that wouldnt come if they diddnt know, thats just more money for me then I would of. and it allows me to talk to my fans via msg and wall posts and have an event linked to it to remind them.

what HAS worked best for me is we do every tuesday night at a small place (like max capacity 40 people), dont charge cover, just take a bit from the bar. Do friends birthday's dedicated to them and get them a small cupcake with a candle and stuff. have people write down requests and the next week we do our best to learn them and play some version of it.

it took about 2 months of some weeks playing to littarly 4 people. with the just keeping it going everyone knows where to go, what day, what time. and they all take turns showing up. and the no cover easily gets thier friends out, walk ins (during the summer the open window helps). not a lot of money yet (some times nothing, other nights like 150 bucks.) but I've realized a lot of people just start comming without me having to give them any information. but without those social media tools, It would take a LOT more time to pick up. and if the last 2 weeks were not so great, I'd make an event like a fundraiser for the next project (advertises what your doing), learn a bunch of novelty songs (we did a naughty swing christmas carols night once, everyone loved it)

as for touring to new areas, havnt done it with this act. but I doubt either would do any good. I'm gussing you should know some popular people out there, before you play there go make some noise on the local radio or something and make your show easily accesible. cuz I find people are lazy theese days. and your not going to get a chance to knock thier socks off if they cant come because they dont know your comming or a specific venue is hard to get to or something. this is a people industry, and the act/band/whatever itself in person is the best marketing and advertising out there. and even more if your starting out.

I compleatly agree its not a magic bullet. the product has to be there, well constructed and well driven. but if you are able to find a way to communicate inbetween shows with your people. It helps with figuring out what they want and keeps a reminder that your still there. and thats one of the hardest thing in an industry with so many players out there begging for peoples attention.

in conclusion:
dont expect any of it to work for you, but it's better and cheaper then nothing. posters dont do shit anymore unless you've created a bunch of hype about your act. but like they always say, "it's not the size of the boat, it's the motion in the ocean." just keep it rocking hard but easy to jump onboard and I think you should be fine

[nathan@beaupremusic.com]

Twitter, I think, is less effective now because everyone has a twitter account including people that shouldn't. Every public personality has one, the author of the above article has one, journalists in their 60s have them, and it's because, apparently, you have to.

When twitter was new and fresh, it was increadable to hear about swarms of tweets showing wide-spread support or opposition to things, revealing customer-service dissasters, and letting the lols "go viral." Now people like me have a twitter account. I don't post often and I don't get much out of the people I follow. I haven't been on in months.

Twitter isn't pointless, it's just been watered down by people like us.

[Stevie B]

So nice to have my suspicions validated... not that I claim to be qualified to comment- I rarely use FaceBook (MySpace and FaceBook- it's all the same to me), and have yet to utter my first "Twitt". In fact, I must admit to being a brand-new blogger. My blog includes (or will, once I figure this all out) insights to multiple areas of creative endeavor, at all of which (wierd syntax, I know) I can claim some degree of expertise. Live performing and organizing events are two areas where our interests appear to overlap, so I think I'd like to post a link to your website on my blog- that is, if it's a)- OK with you, and b)-I can figure out how to do it. (Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.)

[DC]

Although MySpace seems to have been all but abandoned, I've found Facebook to be more effective than my email subscription list. I have picked up new fans in Facebook-land, but that rarely translates to sales.

I never log into my Twitter account. Ever. It is linked to my Facebook updates.

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts. Cheers!

[Matt]

I agree I think Twitter is useless.
However, if you can use Twitter and it doesn't cost you any extra effort, I say do it.

I set up my record label, and tell our artists to sync
your twitter account to myspace/facebook/ArtistData....etc

Then when you post to one of these sites you sync your twitter to you now posted to 5 -10 sites all at the same time, and it didn't take any extra time or effort.
(except to sync them all the first time around)

[Amelia Blake]

I use Twitter only because it is automatically linked to myspace and facebook, which saves me time. But I NEVER look at twitter. I keep my myspace page because my music is right there, easy to find. I refer people to it at my live shows, if they want a taste of my originals.

On facebook, a lot of people don't think to look at the music tab. However, facebook makes it so easy for friends, family and fans to keep up with me. They can respond to my posts, they can send me a message, then can IM me. I scroll through daily to keep up with what they are doing, too, except when I'm very short on time. And every time they give me any kind of feedback (post, reply, message) it goes right to my phone so I can respond if I need to. I'm not ready to give that up yet!

[Spike Brown]

Maybe the trick is to link all of these things together. I've managed to link my Wordpress blog to Myspace, which is linked to the Facebook page, Twitter, and Reverbnation. Last fm I have yet to figure out. From my personal website ther are linked apps to all of these accounts. This makes a huge web presence, and an amusing kind of maze for the curious to rout around in. The content is spread about throughout the whole shebang, and there are various freebies dotted around to be sniffed out. And every time I find a new free thing I can use, I set about linking it to all the others. All this advertising doesn't cost me a penny, just a little effort and creativity. I think fans appreciate the diversity of styles, and linger on the designs they appreciate the most. So how am I losing out here?

[amos]

My humble experience:

facebook- still good for updating friends and fans on gigs, events etc. could potentially work for slow expansion of your fan base if you post content that is good/original enough for your friends to repost. The good thing is that usually a new fan has some first degree connection to someone you know personally, or is someone who saw you live and looked you up (in my band's case at least) and those are usually the 'real' supporters. Still, this is all good for keeping people close, interested and listening... don't expect spikes in sales- if that's what you're looking for. There is a very long way between something "clickable" and something desirable to the point of purchase.

Twitter- for my band only useful as a source of information. our manager has a list of venues and bands he checks once in a while for interesting info. we scored two great support gigs just by being first to respond to a venue tweeting that they need a last minute replacement-band to play support.

Myspace- useless for expanding your fan base, but still a good networking tool when it comes to being in touch with other bands or music professionals (got in touch with out producer, Gordon Raphael, through a myspace message!). Also - and very important- a lot of people in the music biz still refer to myspace first when looking for some basic info on a band. I recommend to keep it updated and tidy as if it was your EPK.

Final word - we spend a minimal amount of time on social networks, and delegate the tasks a bit, but we don't abandon it all together - just to stay in touch.
If you realize you're spending more time online then you are in the rehearsal studio, well, then something ain't right.

[Jarell Perry]

It depends on your goals and how you use it. As an R&B or pop singer and writer, Myspace used to be the place to network with producers and industry folk, big and small.

I increasingly find that, as the L.A. industry scene is most like a popularity contest, Twitter can be absolutely useful for connecting with respectable players and associating your personal brand with others who might up your equity (if ever so slightly; it is a process). People are indeed watching what you say and who you're talking to.

plus, while tweeting may not get you a slew of new fans, it certainly allows for current ones to keep up with you on a more personal level. Why alienate those who may prefer this mode of media consumption (for the moment)?

[Christopher Welch]

Dave ... Facebook works (from experience). Twitter is becoming PR noise and nonsense. Linkedin is worthwhile.

[Miles Curtiss]

I have mixed feeling. Last week, Skylab, Columbus' only live/work artspace was able to raise $1,100 in twelve hours using Facebook alone.

Albiet Skylab has two decades of social capital to call upon. Louder voices get heard better, and the people with the most/best connections can penitrate farther and motivate people into action.

If anything I actually miss Myspace, and would happily trade Facebook for a newer version of Catch21. My twitter usage is very selfish. I never read anyone else's tweets, and really only publish anything because I have a really awesome collection of followers, so I do just enough to keep them entertained.

[Bradley Boyer Music]

Nice Point, David. Great thread here guys! Diverse insight and useful info.
I agree with Spike Brown. Each site has a niche, and we need to mold each one to work best for our audience. For example, our Twitter is an interactive photoblog through TweeTree and TwitPic with artsy fun random things- not JUST band info.

As a performing singer/songwriter, and an indie art-rock band (plus other music projects) linking all your top 5-10 social networks together is key to maximize your time and effectiveness. Reverbnation is great for this- highly organized, and the best digital EPK /tracking out today. The other major element to understand here (like Amos mentioned) is artists can be very effective by using social networks to build a personal network with other music insiders, like-bands and venues. Setting up shows in other cities, gig-swaps, and cross promotion is most important. Playing a great live show in front of new fans wins everytime hands down.

It would be great to see more bands & artists update people on other fun events; art-shows, indie film, who their favorite bands are, live shows, etc. I support all things indie. So many bands are self-driven, seeking a deal, fans, fame, etc. but there are a few who truly understand a real sense of community and supporting a scene. I forsee success in the future will come to those who are actually out there and being social, shaking hands, and meeting people (fans) in real life. Todays internet music jungle has grown so massive, it's nearly impossible for a new artist with potential to cut through the noise.

[milinda]

hey everyone,

This is so timely , I think we are all constantly evaluating these outlets.
It can feel like that circus act with all the spinning plates on sticks and can just serve to make you feel like you are not quite on top of everything. I

I am doubtful about the true worth of twitter. I will admit it bewilders me.

Myspace, I think like a lot of musicians, I appreciate the shop window it provides and I am grateful to it for that.
As for facebook,(David I messaged you last week - you kindly replied but I hope I wasn't the final example of pointlessness that pushed you over the edge !! : )
I'm really reluctant to post for the sake of posting. I see a lot of people post the most inane things and some really sycophantic carry on.But behind all of that I have made aquaintanceships & connections which I would not have but for facebook.
I would be slow to abandon any of them at this point as I feel I cannot afford to cut myself off but if I wasn't a songwriter/artist I would be writing letters and meeting 'friends' for cups of tea : )

Ironically it is people ,like David ( no sycophancy intended !) who I most wish would not quit.We'll be left with those who post about burning their toast.....it burnt because you were writing facebook messages.....!!Tempting but no I will not quit...yet : )

[Joey Daddario]

I was thinking that if Myspace and Facebook merged it would be called, "MySpaceBook". Probably more fitting eh?

Anyway, I find Facebook mildly useful. I log on about once a week. It's fun for connecting with old friends mostly. I don't think I'd go as far as deleting my account however.

The sad thing is that it has become 'a life' for people. It's almost pitiful that people post things that are totally mundane and unimportant. Do they really think that the community wants to know that they "ran out of milk today and had to go to the store to get some more".

Love your stuff Dave,
Joey Daddario

[K. Sharpe]

Wow David, I remember a while back you were saying that Twitter was the next big thing and that we should all join. I think that was only about a year or so ago or whenever it started. When you were touting Twitter I thought that it would be too much effort for too little return and just be another novelty/fad.

[Lori Bumgarner]

I'm still on Facebook and use it the most...still learning learning the nuances of Twitter and am on the fence about it. I got rid of my Myspace account some time ago. Yes, it can all get distracting, but they say you learn something new everyday. Some days the new thing I learn is yet another beneficial aspect of using Facebook and Twitter.

[Joe]

I agree...but I do use Facebook to let my fans know about our gigs or to just share pics and update them. I also use an email service to connect. Does it really work? Not really and sometimes. We're an older act so alot of our fans just won't come out late. But guess what? Sometimes they do and they're glad I notifyed them. Is it worth it? Yea...it kind of adds to the self worth of the band and may influence people to buy your stuff...

[Tiffany Apan]

I do agree with Spike Brown as I have merged together most of my accounts and have found that, for me, it works. I think social medias work when properly used. I have actually had many fans find me on places like facebook, myspace, youtube, twitter, etc and a good portion of those turned into sales, attended shows, etc. I'm finding that (at least in my experience) in this day and age, fans want that interaction and I've made quite a few loyal new fans through the social medias just from taking the time to interact with them. Also, since my website is temporarily down, I've still been able to keep people posted on what is happening with me. I think it's a matter of how one uses it. Unfortunatly, many people don't know how to use it properly which is when the inane "burnt toast" posts or it becomes a popularity contest of sorts; a game of "lets see how many 'fans' we can get.' For me, the quality of a fan is more important than quantity. I've had times where I've gained the "one new fan" and they told several of their friends (word of mouth can still be the best form of promotion) resulting in new searches for my music on the internet and eventually a couple sales, newly attended shows, etc. I do agree that flyers don't to too much unless you are sending them as an advertisement to your those on your mailing list or you already have a hyped up show/event. Promoting your music on the internet does take alot of time and patience. Nothing happens overnight and yes you are competing with alot of "noise" Artists just need to find ways to make themselves stand out, use different tools to their advantage, and be persistent with advertising without being abnoxious.

[David Hooper]

I think that things come and go. The trick is knowing when to get involved and when to drop them.

I'm sure that there will be people who continue to have luck with both Facebook and Twitter for months (maybe even years) to come. The important thing is to track your efforts to see if you're one of them. :)

[David Hooper]

I think posting photos of gigs and tagging people in them is a great way to use Facebook!

[Willis Mattei]

Hello,

I am a sixteen-year-old drummer/singer interested in music marketing (hence the reason why I read this blog) who has "lurked" around here for a few months. Not to be pretentious, but when I saw your older posts about Twitter and Facebook, I knew that this day would come eventually. I have always been wary of Twitter in particular, though I think Facebook is a slightly better avenue to use (however I am still cautious about it and think it should be handled with care). Unfortunately, the "white noise" has indeed drowned out the potential of these sites.

This is perhaps too-broad of a question for a comment thread, but are there any internet sites in particular that you think are good for marketing music?

Thanks,

- Willis (willismattei@msn.com)

P.S. Your blog is great!

[David Hooper]

Willis, thanks for your comments.

You brought up a good point, that I think is worth repeating...

"I knew that this day would come eventually."

I think that it's important that we keep this in mind about EVERYTHING we do, especially the things that are working well.

When something is working well, more and more people jump in, which dilutes the effectiveness of it after a while. As you said, too much noise.

As far as the best sites for marketing music, any site can be good, if you use it right and have the right audience. Right now, I am not pointing people to any specific sites though as nothing is really making a buzz.

Here's the problem...

Once something starts to make a buzz, it starts to go downhill. :(

So you need to get on these things in the beginning, before they really take off.

Any early mp3.com users here? That was the best example of a music site that paid off big for the early adopters.

[soladood]

well - i actually canned facebook after a few times of being hacked into...seems like the facebook camp are too busy counting their profits as opposed to re-investing it back into better security.

anyway - i remember reading something about how some of the original crew walked out because the ceo started getting a fat head - i wonder why?

my thoughts have always been - if ur going to put something up on the web - do yr own - thats what i love about the internet - its anyone's game - as long as u look good and plugin the right backlinks:)

bottomline.

[Kocis]

I use Facebook and Twiiter more than a RSS reader.

All the blogs I follow have Facebook fan pages or a twiiter account.

I'm less likely to read your blog if I don't see a update some where.

[David Hooper]

Thanks for the feedback.

Have thought about this. Could have easily sent updates to both Twitter and Facebook via automation, but have decided not to...for now.

Will keep everybody posted on results.

Hope you'll give RSS a chance. :)

[Terrance (3000 Records)]

IT is easy to get discouraged with any social media site, especially Twitter. HOWEVER, as a promotional tool these social media sites are valuable. I guess you could compare it to being a carpenter. Would you try to do a job without a screwdriver, or hammer? Well, maybe the job doesn't require a hammer and it's a waste of time to carry a hammer on your belt. Still, it is a very very good thing to have a strong presence on EVERY social media site, if you can. If anything, it just simply looks really good, just as having a nice website can make an Artist look good, or give a good impression... but mainly it can be useful if you are an active person on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and even Myspace. This is where thousands of people can get their impression of who you are as an Artist. Unless they are actually meeting you in person, the internet is where you are going to find your Fans. Perhaps David, this just isn't for you, and you can certainly be (and are already) successful without using Twitter or Facebook. However, for an upcoming Artist I believe it is absolutely a useful IF it is made useful by the Artist. I would prefer to have a full toolbox and make use of every tool possible. In my opinion, if you feel that social media isn't for you, perhaps you could pay someone to handle it for you. IF NOT for yourself, at least do it for the other people that actually want to find you, and hear from you through social media. Now is the time to take full advantage of getting the most out of social media before it becomes even more saturated. Also, Myspace is still pretty much the main place that people are going to go to actually listen to your music. It's where I send most of the DJs I work with, when telling them about an Artist. This is just about always where I go to hear an Artist's music because Myspace is a reliable way to listen free, without downloading. Myspace (as a tool) is extremely useful. Perhaps where most Artists get discouraged is in the lack of tangible results after putting in so much time and effort. To me, it's all about leverage.. but you need to start with really good music. With good music, it is sooooooo much easier to make many more fans with the same effort. However, let's go back even further... you can make a high quality recording, but first you need a really good written song. My point is that you need to start with something good, to end up with good results. Finally, don't judge yourself based on the tangible results. Be confident in who you are as an Artist, and keep growing with or without social media or even the internet for that matter.

[evolvor]

Sorry, but I'm afraid none of you understand social media at all. All the "influencers" use Twitter and Facebook and they are the people you need to worry about. No one understands Twitter anyway so why trash it? Understand how these things can benefit you first and then start using them properly. The goal with social media isn't to market yourself cause no one cares. The goal is to NETWORK with those who have the influence you need to go viral and get exposure. Once you understand that, these things will benefit you.

[Cheekyjack]

Just my two cents...

It all depends on how you choose to use social media. Social Media (be it Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, Linkedin etc) has to be "engaging". If you use them just to "shout out", you'll just be another shouting voice in a room full of shouting persons.

"Engaging" means attracting people's attention to your content and info through smart interesting posts... Not just shouting out when you "need" their attention.

Not an easy task...It takes a lot of work and time to create engaging social spaces.

Take a look at this response to Leo's decision...

http://www.robertbcairns.com/2010/08/leo-laporte-and-engaging/

[Sam King]

Social Networking is POINTLESS... when you are IMPERSONAL!

... I've met some really cool people through FB, got some good advice through Twitter and had people talk about my band on other sites because of it.

... Keep it ALL going, as a small part to gear towards the big picture, and stay away from
Thing1: "Hey, is that @ The Biltmore?"
Reply: "THX FR TH ADD! I'm now on ITUNES"

hate that.

[Jas]

If Facebook was a country it would be the 3rd largest with over 400million members. thats some serious numbers to leverage.

Social media is about Social. about creating and nurturing relationships. Sometimes its about creating or recreating ourself.

My first computer was an atari. I never played games, I used it for music. yet the Electronic gaming industry is huge. people love to play. When I taught computers at high school, the kids were obsessed with on-line gaming. which is about character development and interplay; among other things.

Social Media is the same thing. So if we approach it as a game, and after all, marketing is a game, then perhaps we may have fun and even win over 1% of that facebook community to our story.

Ultimately however the goal is to get them to come to our own website and join up, and invest in our story, frequent our gigs and tell there friends.

Its the fine art of brouhaha.

[Loretta]

They are both great!
However, people do get distracted and only use the big ones when their fanbase is also on 20 other sites, and many other newspapers, television, radio stations, and in person.

You should spend equal amounts of time on everything to get the word out.

CREATIVE MARKETING!

[Jasper van Vugt]

Social Media are indeed not a magic bullet.

You are the bullet, Social Media are a gun that let's you point at anyone in the world.

[Cesar]

I completely disagree. I do think that social media is the magic bullet, but first, you need to aim the bullet in the right direction, and second, it's no supposed to replace completely the traditional ways of promotion, distribution, etc.

Many artists (among other types of users) don't really understand social media or the proper way to use it. If you just post updates about your music and the pictures of your band, and if your posts, for the most part, say things like "we have a new song out", "we're playing a show in a week", or "check out the pictures from our show" followed by a link, you're only targeting the people who already know about you, and probably boring the hell out of them at the same time. Being a social media robot doesn't work, and it will fail unless you're already a celebrity. You can't use social media to promote anything in such an impersonal way, what you're doing is basically spamming people, and no one likes spam. And social media is not about your current fans, it's about your potential fans, who are pretty much the whole world.

I have achieve many things for my band, The Watermarks, and for my job (I'm a freelancer audio engineer/sound designer) things that would have been impossible without social media. We got two songs on an MTV show (the music director of the show found us on MySpace), we are going to have 3 of our songs in an independent film from an LA director, which will also feature some of the lead characters wearing t-shirts of my band, our EP, which was released last year, was reviewed by many magazines and blogs from all over the world, our music has been downloaded and heard innumerable times by people from all over the world, just a couple of weeks ago our music video was watched on YouTube around 300 times in three days in Germany alone after posting a link to the video on a social site, we've met artists and contacts from other cities, which has allowed us to play outside our hometown, our fanbase grows every day weather we are performing live often or not, and I've found work and met people who have helped me expand my personal network. These are just a few of things that were possible because of social media. We are no big act, we have no record label, no manager, no money, and everything we do is done by us, without help of anyone.

And the key of social media relies on the word "social". See, like I said before, people don't like robotic promotional machines, however, people like people. We use Facebook, Twitter, and MySpace (although, MySpace should be called DeadSpace nowadays) mainly, and although we do promote our music and our shows there, we use those sites to engage with people, weather they are fans or not. We have conversations about music and the industry, we talk about new exciting music from other artists, we promote other local artists, we ask our fans opinions about ideas and future projects, we comment on other people's updates (which people really appreciate), we treat them like people. We have a personality. Usually, I'm the one updating our Facebook fanpage and engaging with our fans there (any of us can) and I would do the same on Twitter, but I just don't have time, so right now our Twitter is a little impersonal. However, I run my personal Twitter profile also, were I talk about my daily life and engage with people, and of course, talk about my band. There's no age for social media, there isn't not a "crowd too old to take advantage of Twitter or Facebook", this is completely not true.

What I've discovered about social media is that people don't care about anyone who only promote their stuff, say nothing interesting or funny, and don't read what they have to say (about their own lives/projects/products), unless you're a celebrity or your giving them something useful (like information). What I've observed is that people are first interested in who I am, and it's only after they like me as a person that they get interested in what I do.

I believe in social media, and I've witnessed its power. I don't think Facebook/Twitter are currently useless, and the fact that they've gone mainstream only makes them more powerful. I wouldn't recommend any independent artist to quit social media, especially the current big players (Facebook, Twitter). Instead of discouraging its use, I would teach them how to use social media properly.

All I've written here is, of course, my personal opinion based on my personal experience. Whatever method anyone else uses to promote their music is their own business.

Cesar
www.thewatermarks.net